It was really starting to hit me how much I had chosen over the years to ignore and/or reject arguments merely because I didn’t like them. I had been very closed minded. I was now asking myself, “Why? Why did I do that?”. A few years earlier, I wasn’t even aware of terms like confirmation bias or cognitive dissonance.
My faith had been a significant part of me since the age of 14, so even in the face of strong scientific evidence, I compartmentalized and concluded that somehow, God would make sense of it all. That’s what faith is all about, right? But with each day, I was wondering more often if my oldest son was right and I was wrong.
The majority of my previous exploration was tied to origins and the sciences. I hadn’t spent significant time since my college days to consider the many criticisms of the Bible. But now I had reached the point where I was willing to think more openly about Biblical issues.
Free Will Argument – Where did Evil Come From?
A fair and simple definition of “free will” is the ability to make choices that are unconstrained by anyone. I enjoyed theological discussion with Christian friends over the years, and this was a puzzler. Acknowledging the existence of free will is how theologians get God off the hook for being the source of evil. As a Christian, I understood that for mankind to truly have free will, it meant that evil had to be a possible result.
But what about free will in heaven? Like all Christians, I would ponder about life after death where there’s no sin and no tears (Rev. 21 & 22). The problem though is this means Christians don’t have free will in heaven because logically speaking, you can’t have a heaven without sin unless you also have the loss of free will. God would have to strip away our free will, otherwise, like Satan, we might rebel later.
During my college days, I learned that the topic of evil’s origin is called theodicy, and that theologians routinely considered it the most difficult puzzle in Christianity. There are entire books and studies devoted to the topic of free will vs. determinism but it was becoming clearer to me that there’s a significant conflict with what the Bible teaches regarding God (who is both omnipotent and omniscient), and man who is supposed to have free will. God’s omniscience means that every action we will ever perform is known by God before we make our choices. The Bible says that “our names were written in the Lamb’s book of life before the foundations of the world” [before creation]. Under a Biblical view, free will is an illusion because our choices cannot differ from the ones that God already made for us. You can get a headache when pondering whether God merely fore-knew our choices vs. God manipulating the circumstances of life to ensure His good pleasure… But, how can mankind have real free will if God knows our future choices?
Someone else put it this way: “If God is all knowing and he loves us, why would he even place the tree of good and evil in the garden? He obviously knew what would happen if he did so therefore it is God’s fault that we sinned. He didn’t have to put that tree there. If we can’t eat from it then it serves no purpose in the garden except to tempt us. He could say that it’s a test but an all-knowing God doesn’t need to perform the test to know what will happen.”
Compounding the issue, it was clear to me that the Bible taught that all things happened according to God’s will, which even included the famous example of Job being tempted by Satan, but only after God suggested it by saying to Satan, “Have you considered Job?”
I want to take a quick detour here. In Job chapter 2, Satan (whom the Bible says “roams the earth, seeking whom he may devour”) was called to God’s presence for a chit-chat, and shortly thereafter, God asks Satan what he’s been up to, which of course, since God is omniscient He should know (right?), but perhaps He wanted Satan to verbalize it. Satan responds, “I’ve been roaming throughout the earth…” [and we can safely conclude, he was looking for someone to devour]. God then asks, “Have you considered Job?” (Job 2:3).
Wow. The first time I caught the impact of God just offering up Job to Satan like a dog’s chew toy — it was rather startling to me. I was quite familiar with the rest of the story wherein Job suffers horribly which includes losing his children and then later his health. And it’s always bothered me how often collateral characters are slaughtered or killed with little or no care, as was the case with Job’s kids. It’s a theme oft repeated in the Bible. Job’s wife was not physically harmed but she certainly suffered greatly in losing her children. The latter is a common example of the Bible’s sexism. A woman’s suffering is not considered – – only Job, a man, is viewed as important. But was even Job important? God offered him up to Satan like a little fly to have his wings pulled off and played with.
Another passage that always troubled me is Romans chapter 9, where it declares that “God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and he hardens [changes their will] whom He wants to harden.” Or Psalm 115, “Our God is in the heavens; He does all that He pleases.”
Those were but a few verses on the subject, and it was clear that the God of the Bible is in total control. And thus, if God created human beings knowing that He would have to torture them for all eternity because they behaved exactly the way He knew they would, logically that is pretty damn evil.
Obviously, that was an incompatible conclusion to my Christian faith. So I rationalized it away with “God’s ways are mysterious“. I wasn’t ready to accept what it all meant.
God Chooses Who is Saved
Another related and controversial doctrine from the Bible regards “election of the saints”. It’s the teaching of God choosing who will or won’t be saved while others are condemned for all eternity. The Old Testament teaches that the nation of Israel (the Jews) are His chosen people. Deut. 7:6 says, “The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.” Jesus also told his disciples, “You did not choose me. I chose you.” (John 15:16). And in the NT, it is clear that He “chose before the foundations of the world” who would be “written in the Lamb’s book of life“. Many people have attempted to re-interpret this teaching to mean that God merely foreknew who would choose Him, but an honest reading of the passages made it clear that God does the choosing (see also Deut. 7:6, 14:2; Psalm 105:43; Psalm 135:4; John 15; John 17:9; Romans 9:14; Ephes. 1:4; 1 Peter 1). I was familiar with the Calvinists and Presbyterians who acknowledged this view of God, but I was often surprised by how few Christians were aware of the doctrine. A common reaction among many is, “I don’t want to talk about that”.
Hell
In the NT, the references to hell are frequent but often obscure. The word Gehenna is used which was a place for trash. Other verses described the fate of unbelievers as a place of darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and the word Gehenna (hell) isn’t used. However, that familiar term “unquenchable fire” was tied to Gehenna where trash and refuse were disposed of. I had learned in college that during those primitive times, a fire was always going at Gehenna in order to burn up refuse. How odd then that it was Jesus, meek and mild, who spoke of hell in the gospels — a place for “eternal punishment” (Matt. 25:46). In the book of Revelation, we get the extra nasty picture of a lake of fire that the devil and non-Christians are cast into.
The doctrine of hell and eternal damnation has always been a tough pill to swallow. But I hadn’t considered before how significant the lack of harmony in the Bible was, particularly between the Old Testament (OT) and the New Testament (NT). In the OT, the word Sheol is often mentioned. Occasionally it gets translated as “hell” but the better translations stick to the the proper word, “grave”. When someone dies, they go to the grave. There’s really no mention to an afterlife in the Old Testament. One would logically think that the Old Testament would be filled with passages about heaven and hell. Isn’t that an important topic? Good luck finding them.
While the teaching of hell in the Bible is at times convoluted, it begged the question for me as to why a loving God who is omniscient (all-knowing) would create human beings that He knew would reject Him, and then torment and/or eternally let them suffer? Considered rationally and logically, it is utterly grotesque.
A Violent God?
As a student of the Bible, I knew that the Old Testament contained story after story of a very angry, capricious, and jealous God who drowned millions in a world-wide flood; who rained burning sulfur on a city; who killed all of the firstborn children of Egypt; who consumed those that complained with fire; and who swallowed up people in a chasm of the earth. Those stories bothered me, but it troubled me even more that He commanded his own people to murder other tribes and nations – – including women, children and livestock! (Deut. 13). Genocide happened many times in the OT. It also troubled me that God sent two female bears to maul and kill 42 young boys who mocked a prophet’s bald head. [1]
Those were a few examples of the 150+ occurrences of God killing the people He created (see a full list if desired). As a Christian, I had accepted that this was true and that I should be grateful that God was now more gracious and merciful. But now, these stories were really bothering me. I also had a nagging question about why a loving Heavenly Father would request human sacrifice?! Why would God ask his servant Abraham to demonstrate his faith by plunging a knife into his son? (Genesis 22). What kind of nonsense was that?! If anyone today said that God had commanded them to demonstrate their faith by killing their only child, they would be evaluated for serious mental health issues. [Related, there’s the case of Deanna Laney who crushed the heads of her sons, because she in fact believed God had told her to].
But, but, but…
Even after considering all of that, I still couldn’t fully let go of my faith. The Bible, after-all has some interesting self-defense mechanisms inside to keep people from thinking critically about it all. We are told that any doubts are of the devil, and we are taught that unbelievers will suffer the most terrifying consequence imaginable if we don’t repent. Of course, the punishment isn’t just a few years or a few decades. It’s for all eternity. This gave me a reason to consider Pascal’s Wager, but embracing faith as a “just in case” sort of thing truly fell apart under review.
While contemplating it all, my thoughts kept returning to the people of different faiths: Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, Muslims and Hindus. Is a person’s chosen belief system simply a matter of geography? (It would seem so). It certainly did appear to me that a person’s country of origin dictated their religion a majority of the time. I also couldn’t shake the thought that Muslims often demonstrated far greater dedication to their faith; and Mormons often demonstrated better morality and conduct. The atrocities from past Christian church history kept coming to mind too.
In my own personal experience in church service for 30+ years, I repeatedly saw Christians who demonstrated some of the WORST behavior among human beings. Of course, many were very kind and generous but I found a significant number to be some of the most judgmental, intolerant, hateful and ungrateful people in the world. I came to realize that religious belief didn’t make a big impact on moral behavior. Two related examples I discovered regarded divorce rate comparisons for Christians vs. non-Christians (nearly identical), and the viewing of pornography which is often higher among conservatives (2).
Cults and De-Conversion
Around this time of my life, I had great interest in the stories of people who grew up in a cult but eventually escaped. I was starting to wonder if my own faith had parallels? I saw how those who escaped a cult went through difficult periods of de-programming. After escape, they felt that their world no longer made sense for a period of time. What I found striking is that even though the teachings of various cults is horrific and false, these members were extremely reluctant to walk away from it. I asked myself, “why?”. Why would it be so difficult for someone to let go of blatantly false beliefs? And yet this was true of every religion I examined. We believe what we are raised with. I chuckled how many of us believed in a magical fat man who dressed in a red & white suit and delivered toys to billions of people in one night. It seems that we are creatures who love the idea of supernatural wonders, even though science shows us it’s illogical. We seem deeply motivated to believe what we want to be true, regardless of reality.
Well, by the fall of 2013, my faith barely had a pulse but I wasn’t ready to give myself a label like atheist. I had warmed to the idea of being called an agnostic though. I continued to hold onto the possibility that there might be some significant evidence or argument that could restore my faith, so I continued to read and to collect notes and thoughts. My two-column document kept growing. Unfortunately, the column I devoted for “reasons why I don’t believe” was far longer.
>>>> Click here to read the conclusion to my story <<<<
[1] In regard to the story in 2 Kings 2 with Elisha, some would say that perhaps the boys were young men rather than young lads, or that the importance of Elisha as God’s prophet who wrote scripture was at stake. But come on… the God who created the universe couldn’t just humiliate the young boys in some manner? He had to kill them by being ripped apart by bears?? That doesn’t sound like a God who has much creative wisdom in dealing with issues.
[2] A second article is here.
Good on you, Logan! Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin would be proud of you!
The free will/evil issue has almost been entirely given up by atheistic philosophers as it has been entirely answered by Christian philosophers, primarily Alvin Plantinga, who in his 1974 book titled ‘God, freedom, and evil’ is universally considered to have put down the problem of evil.
“But, how can mankind have real free will if God knows our future choices?”
God’s foreknowledge of our actions exists because God already knows the choices we are going to make with our own free will.
“If God is all knowing and he loves us, why would he even place the tree of good and evil in the garden? He obviously knew what would happen if he did so therefore it is God’s fault that we sinned. He didn’t have to put that tree there. If we can’t eat from it then it serves no purpose in the garden except to tempt us. He could say that it’s a test but an all-knowing God doesn’t need to perform the test to know what will happen.”
It is a test, and we failed. God needed to do this to ultimately expunge evil. Adam and Eve sinned. Hence, God’s plan begins. It’s a long plan, it starts in the Garden of Eden and reaches the climax during the crucifixion of Jesus and death for our sins and His resurrection. The only step God has left to ultimately scourge evil from the face of reality is His Second Coming.
What about Job? The greatest presentation and response to these accusations I’ve ever seen in my life must be through this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZKuixGmiMw
“God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and he hardens [changes their will] whom He wants to harden.” (Romans 9:18)
You say that this passage troubles you. Perhaps you should have kept reading a few verses on, to see Paul’s very response to the people who are claimed to be troubled by this truth.
Romans 9:20-24: But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” Or has the potter no right over the clay, to make from the same lump one piece of pottery for honor and another for dishonor? And what if God, wanting to display his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And what if he did this to make known the riches of his glory on objects of mercy that he prepared beforehand for glory— on us, the ones he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
“There’s really no mention to an afterlife in the Old Testament. One would logically think that the Old Testament would be filled with passages about heaven and hell. Isn’t that an important topic? Good luck finding them.”
Daniel 12:2: Many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to eternal life, and some to disgrace and eternal contempt.
“In the NT, the references to hell are frequent but often obscure. The word Gehenna is used which was a place for trash.”
Err… No. Gehenna was a little more then that. Perhaps you should check out a Bible Dictionary on Gehenna.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/gehenna/
In the New Testament, Gehenna is used as an analogue for the lake of fire. You go on to the Old Testament slaughters, which is basically just God judging and destroying the wicked peoples (thank God for that). God destroyed the wicked for the same reason we destroyed the wicked nazis in World War II. Were the Allies evil for killing the Nazis? No, because they were wicked and they committed crimes that earned them the punishment of death. Likewise, the same principle applies to the peoples God destroyed — they were so evil that God wiped them out.
Deuteronomy 9:5: “It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Perhaps this will solve your unbelief in the living God.
@ SC,
You wrote: God’s foreknowledge of our actions exists because God already knows the choices we are going to make with our own free will.
My response? Malarkey! Makes about as much sense as the existence of your god. What a way around the horn to justify your belief.
“God’s foreknowledge of our actions exists because God already knows the choices we are going to make with our own free will.
My response? Malarkey! Makes about as much sense as the existence of your god. What a way around the horn to justify your belief.”
I’ll try to clarify things for you.
God has foreknowledge. But what exactly does God have foreknowledge of? God knows what we are going to do. That doesn’t mean we don’t have free will. We do have free will. And in the future, we’re going to use our free will to do X. God already knows that we will use our free will to do X. Hence, God has foreknowledge, but His foreknowledge specifically is about what we will personally do with our own free will.
In other words, God does not determine what we will do with our free will — we determine that, and God knows our determination in advance (hence, foreknowledge).
I have read a plethora of blog discussions on free will. Most take one side or the other and present their reasons why they believe as they do. To me, it seems very obvious you’re trying to have it both ways … and using circular reasoning to do so.
I suppose if what you believe makes sense to you, that’s really all that matters. Personally, I just live my life and don’t worry what part any god(s) play in it.
I’m not trying to have it both ways. It’s not as if I made him my arguments — I got it from philosophers (all of whom have given up on trying to argue that God’s omniscience is incompatible with free will).
There is no circular reasoning but its simple. God knows what we will do with our free will in advance. That’s it. His foreknowledge doesn’t make us act differently or force us to do one thing or another, because it was through our own free will that we were to do it in the first place. So it’s our choice.
“Personally, I just live my life and don’t worry what part any god(s) play in it.”
Pascal’s Wager. Plus, read this in the Bible.
Hebrews 10:31: It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Not a bit terrifying if you don’t believe a “living God” exists. 🙂
“Not a bit terrifying if you don’t believe a “living God” exists. ?”
Pascal’s Wager is a terrifying thing for the unbeliever. I remembered when I disbelieved — the fear of death was enough for me, but back then, I didn’t even know the concept of eternal torment. Thank God I believe, I probably wouldn’t be able to take it otherwise. Indeed, I seriously don’t know how a disbeliever goes to bed at night knowing that they could fall into an everlasting pit one day. Hebrews 10:31 struck me greatly when I read it.
Trust me, SC. I sleep well. Just as an FYI — I’ve been where you are so I understand your perspective.
And as hard as it may be for you to believe, I’m far more at peace now. So nothing you can say or any “threats” the bible contains will cause me to return.
“nothing… will cause me to return”
Return? You were once part of the bandwagon? There is no need to get off.
The Bible, unfortunately, is just a plain depiction of reality. It’s not really anything more, anything less. It’s also the most remarkable story ever told.
Check this out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GswSg2ohqmA
SC, Nan actually wrote a book entitled “Things I Never Learned in Sunday School”. It’s very well written and is based on her extensive reading and research. https://escapefromreligion.wordpress.com/
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Interesting but I’m not going to spend my time reading an polemic against Christianity that contains a bunch of stuff I’ve probably already read somewhere else, anyways. If Nan wants to post some of his arguments on their blog then I’ll be happy to address it there. In fact, I’ll start pillaging his blog right now (like I did yours) to try to destroy everything they’ve come to take as truth.
SC, I’d encourage you to attempt that.
BTW, your choice of words during your visits the last several days are revealing. Your hubris and frequent condescending tone reflect poorly on you and the gospel that you want to defend. You’ve also revealed one of the motiviations behind your faith: intense fear.
Nan and I (and many more of the other visitors to this blog) have a lot in common, which is that we were once true and sincere believers and followers of the faith. We no longer are. And we’re much happier now, and we enjoy greater peace.
You mentioned your intent to “start pillaging” her blog “to destroy”. Give it a shot. Maybe start with this post: https://sayitnow.wordpress.com/dear-beliver/
Or join in the conversation for her sticky post here: https://sayitnow.wordpress.com/2012/11/20/leaving-christianity-oh-what-a-relief-it-is/
Logan, thank you for your support! 🙂
SC did leave a comment on my “book” blog, which I posted instead on Nan’s Notebook and invited others to respond (the comments didn’t really pertain to the book’s contents).
I agree a condescending tone is beginning to creep in. I hope this is simply due to frustration. I’m sure it’s difficult dealing with us hard-nose deconverts. 😀
“BTW, your choice of words during your visits the last several days are revealing. Your hubris and frequent condescending tone reflect poorly on you and the gospel that you want to defend. You’ve also revealed one of the motiviations behind your faith: intense fear.”
I don’t think I was condescending. As for fear, you at least misunderstood my point. Once, I didn’t believe. In fact, I didn’t even know of the concept of God and heaven. Two or three times, the idea of the end was truly frightening. Hence, I know how it is like to be an unbeliever, in utter fear. This is all too clearly reflected.
Hebrews 10:31: It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God
But that’s besides the point. I don’t want to sound condescending at all, so I’ll try to watch my words some more. You give me two posts to target on Nan’s blog — I will be very happy to handle them both. Except a comment of mine under both of those posts in the next half hour.
Just wanted to be sure, SC, that you got my email related to the comment you left on my book blog. If not, then let me direct you to here.
A lively conversation has already started and you’re certainly invited to join in. 🙂
I did in fact get the email. I didn’t expect you to completely reblog my comment, but I greatly enjoy it. I will immediately post my own comment on that new post and challenge you to a 1 on 1 debate on the reliability of the Gospels through our blogs, as well as address your many fans.
Likewise to Nan, I also sleep very well at night and I have greater peace now. SC, I don’t have time to respond to all of your comments due to critical career work I’m in the midst of, but I appreciate the visits and I’ll try to respond in a few days or so.